As the owner of CFO for Growth, I have been talking to small business owners to learn about their businesses and find out what challenges they face in developing and growing their sales, increasing profitability, as well as business & financial planning.
In today’s interview, I talk to Paul Jordan who owns Learn Digital Marketing Expert, a provider of an online training course that teaches complete digital marketing skills to small business owners and people who are just starting out with an online business. It also teaches people how to outsource work.
Paul also runs Vivity Internet Marketing, an online marketing agency for business owners who want to outsource their online marketing. His agency offer complete marketing services including website creation, sales funnel building, email marketing, video creation and production, graphic design, Facebook advertising, social media marketing, content creation, chatbot creation and much more. Paul’s company can also build online training courses. I can certainly recommend Paul’s services and online products. If you want to get in touch with him, I’ve provided his contact details here for you:
Web: https://www.ldm.expert, https://www.vivityinternetmarketing.co.uk
What we’ve covered today:
1. Paul’s story and how his previous experience led him to set up his own business.
2. Paul's super interesting hobbies and what he does when he’s not working or creating content for his course.
3. Paul’s advice on how you can generate leads for your business -both when you’re just starting up or in the process of scaling.
4. How you can learn digital marketing easily and use this knowledge to take your company to the next level.
hi my name is aggie and i'm a founder of cfo for growth and today i'm bringing you a special guest paul jordan paul is a founder of vivit internet marketing and the creator of an online course learn digital marketing and today we're talking to paul about his experience as a business owner his journey as a business owner and also hopefully he will share with us some really good tips and advice on how we can market our own business businesses and how can others find us online so hi paul welcome it's great to be here with you and have the conversation hi agui thank you very much for inviting me i'm very grateful so thank you very much so why don't we start with uh you know introductions tell us a little bit more about yourself and what you do sure okay um so elaine's obviously paul jordan i do digital marketing and i do digital marketing coaching as you mentioned we have the online training course um my profession originally was as a well i graduated in electrical and electronic engineering a long time ago and then i moved into the world of i.t doing websites coding software development project management and internet so internet marketing which is what i'm involved in now was kind of a natural extension because it's quite technical there's a lot of technical stuff going on behind the scenes which i still get my hands dirty with as well as the actual marketing which is obviously all the images and the copywriting so that's that's where i keep that's my background where i came from but internet marketing is kind of what i moved into a few years ago now through um through circumstances that arose at the time okay so and where are you based at the moment so right now i'm based in plymouth in the uk um so plymouth is in devon down on the south west part of the country um but of course the great thing about the internet is that we have global reach and um have dealt with people in numerous places it's uh it's always interesting to see where they come from it's quite amazing really yes absolutely and so would you be able to tell us a little bit of your story and how did it happen that actually you decided to set up your own business because obviously that's very different to uh being employed yeah very much so very much so um yeah it's quite a long story i'll try and condense it as quickly as i can so um so as i say i originally when i first started my first job was actually in control systems so i used to write the code for controlling things like pharmaceutical manufacturing plants oil refineries gas plants which is really interesting but it was never in very glamorous locations it's always in very industrial places and this is going back probably probably the late 80s i suppose i graduated in 87 this is probably the late 80s so in the early 90s the internet was just starting to get known and started to take off and i remember i coded my very first website in using microsoft notepad because early websites were very primitive but of course very exciting times and i was really attracted to that technology and what was going on and obviously the web started to take off so i moved across from control systems into it so i did a lot of it projects so writing the code and connecting back end systems with the front end of a website then i moved into project management to actually manage the projects which i found really interesting did some really exciting projects there most these projects were kind of more um or i should say they weren't so commercial they were kind of more technical projects so websites that would do something so they would like interface with a back-end system um they weren't really marketing oriented marketing oriented projects i suppose and then i moved i was working in london for a long time where i had a really really good senior project managers job but i have children down here in the west country who are now grown up but back then they were still very young and i got really fed up doing the journey every two weeks 200 miles to come and see them so i moved to devon um got a job with an i.t company well no they weren't an i.t company they were a utilities management company really facilities management and they had an it department after 11 months they went bust and i found myself out of work which was a real shock because i just taken on a big mortgage and i had no money coming in so i was panicking all right so it was a real stressful time so i had had some interest in property got the property up and running rented out and so forth um and then realized that you know i wasn't so fond of having my life in control of an employer i'd always worked for employers in the past and i decided to do my own thing so it took me quite a while before i really worked out my path it's only probably about three or probably four years ago or so before i really got into internet marketing and but i decided i wanted to be in control of my own destiny and not be you know um working really hard working long hours and getting successful projects only for the company to go bust it's just it's just not a good thing you know if you're going to work hard you may as well get the rewards yourself so um recognizing i had a lot of skills that were relevant for internet marketing um it took me quite a while for the penny to drop actually because i thought hey you know what why am i not doing this affiliate marketing you've got paul you've got all the skills why aren't you doing this i thought wow this is really exciting so i got involved in initially doing affiliate marketing which is where basically you're you're sending traffic via the internet to a merchant's page and then when somebody makes a purchase you get paid a commission that's what affiliate marketing is in a nutshell and then i realized that um affiliate marketing is good you can make some really good money and you can make money really fast when you get things working but then sometimes an offer the merchant might take down the offer and you set up all the advertising infrastructure and put a lot of time and effort and then the offer is taken down and you don't really have a business because you don't don't have your own products so i decided to build a training course an online training course recognizing that if i was to have a business i've got to have my own products and i'm in charge and nobody can take them away from me and i can try and sell them so that's what i set out to do about 18 months ago i built the online training course on a different platform originally and had a lot of problems with the the technical support was appalling with this platform i've spent a lot of money on it and i'm getting very frustrated couldn't get things to work a particular support issue which was a key issue dragged on for about nine months and just still wasn't fixed despite conversations with the owner of the company and stuff quite a big company as well i got really i got really disillusioned really fed up and i just walked away from it feeling really despondent and frustrated and then i kind of got kick-started again after a few months and realized the most the big mistake that i'd made is i've created all the content directly on the platform and the big lesson there which is very obvious in hindsight and i say this to anybody in any situation in life really if you're creating your own content whether you're writing a book or a training course or a website or whatever it is write it in a in a document and then paste it into the platform because i had to then go through the platform and copy and paste all the content back out i couldn't easily export it in order to get it onto another platform and there's like videos and graphics there's tons of stuff in there so it took about a month of work to get all the content out ready to post onto a new platform so um did that about 18 months ago started doing that about 18 months ago finished building a training course earlier this year um and right now i'm at the stage of uh launching the sales and trying to get some uh trying to get some yeah trying to get some sales from the new train calls so that's where i'm at at the moment okay and at the moment you are concentrating on the work uh and the the course as opposed to your consulting work do you that's right that's right so we i've got a as you mentioned earlier i've got some vivid internet marketing which is a marketing agency i've kind of switched off the energy into that at the moment to focus on promoting this course so i'm still kind of writing that in parallel but i'm not trying to recruit newcastle's customers for that directly i'm trying to get the course launched um because it's electronic there's no inventory to manage um i think it'll be a good thing to do and part of the course one of the things that we sell with the course is that people have access to me and my team so if they're running through the training course and they get stuck we can just help them out they can zoom like we are now we can do a [ __ ] screen share they can pick up the phone whatever they prefer to communicate with and we can help them solve problems explain answers to questions help them understand things so they can become self-sufficient um or you know what some people will do like a lot of things in life people will try to do something themselves like they might fill in their own tax return do the training do the first tax return realize that it took them three days to do it and think you know what i don't want to do that anymore i'm going to give it to somebody else you know so i suspect people will drop out the course and even though they've learned everything about how to do their own online digital marketing they may get to the end of the course and do you know what that's a lot of work i don't want to do all that i'll give it to you us to um to do some or all of the work for them so that's uh that's where i'm at yes plus obviously you know a course like this i've seen the platform and your course i mean looks all it looks awesome and you know with content like this and course like this it means that everybody also they'll be they'll be growing their own business because this is the whole point and the moment they're growing the sales is increasing obviously then we are then tempted and attempted or we we must really then outsource more and more of the work that we do so we won't be able to do everything ourselves so um i'm assuming that will also help yeah very much so i hope so and that's that's part of the realization is that because any business has to do doing some do its own marketing um and i know we when when any business starts out me including if you're a one person starting out you have to do everything like we would saying bookkeeping um a bit of a bit of creative work you have to do everything when you're starting out um but of course marketing is key because without marketing you don't get sales and you don't get customers and you don't get money absolutely so a lot of people starting out need to learn how to do this stuff um and i think you know people talk about courses being quite expensive but i always say what's the cost of ignorance because if we don't learn stuff and we work in ignorance we could be you know we could be losing so much time in progression of our company in our career by not getting the right knowledge at the right time and with so many things in life even when we learn how to do something and we still might choose to outsource that work but i would say with any with anything in life really you still need to learn how to do that task yourself initially in order to learn how to outsource it to somebody else because otherwise how do you know if they're doing it properly how do you know how to have a conversation with what it is they're doing it's um it's a case of being aware of everything and not having to know necessarily the whole detail but at least if you can know a bit about something you can have a conversation with a person who's the expert to get things done on your behalf yes i agree with that hundred percent i mean myself as a business owner yes i've got expertise in finance but for me i invested a lot of money into education about you know about sales and marketing i mean we do have a quite a few pillars that visit you know to look to take care of and look into and you know a few departments to manage as a business owner and i agree with this 100 that we of course won't know every detail that goes into it but we need to have some kind of um general or you know overall knowledge to be even able to have a conversation with our team to challenge our team to direct our team to express you know what we are our expectations toward towards our team as well marketing sales it's it's it's a big one in this case very much so it's um i think um i always sort of say to people in life generally i kind of um for me personally i mean i live on my own i have my own place um and i can cook i can clean i can i can paint my house um there are a lot of things i can do i'm not an expert in any of those things i'm not a top chef but i can do them and i know that because i can do them i can give them to somebody else to do but i i've got a pretty reasonable idea of how they should be approaching and if and if they're doing the job properly if i hadn't done any of those things like if i didn't know how how to decorate a house and i gave it i just appointed a decorator you know it might only be after he's done the work badly that i've realized that you think oh if i'd have known how to do that i would have learned to say i want this done and this done and this done and then you can specify it more accurately yeah you could say to a decorator just come and paint my house or you can say to decorate right i want you to strip off the walls apply some undercoat apply some primer use this emulsion and just be quite specific about how you want the job done but equally when you're specifying any kind of work it makes it more easy for someone to put a price on it because they know they're gonna put three coats of paint on instead of two coats of paint so you need to know these things in order to outsource that task to somebody else and that applies to a lot of things you know if you're getting your car fixed you need to know you need to know which end of the car your engine is and what fluids go in it you know you need to know some basic knowledge so that you go to a car dealer you can have a conversation with somebody and you can explain what the problem is and have a you know have a reasonable idea that you're getting treated properly and so it's like everything you need to have a bit of knowledge in order to outsource stuff that's what i think exactly agreed um so tell us a bit more about you and what's some in and mention an interesting fact about your maybe secret that nobody knows oh secrets um if i told you it wouldn't be a secret anymore would it i don't know i was hoping maybe you would share you know something a piece of gossip that no one ever has ever heard about you let's have a thing this other thing there's probably a few things i probably couldn't share but um as well as um i mean this internet marketing is my prime focus and my passion and my obsession but i've also got interests in property so about about 12 years ago i appeared on a uk tv program called homes under the hammer oh my god i love this show oh really yes i watched it i mean at the moment i don't watch it because i don't have tv at the moment but i used to be because i'm also interested in property it's interesting it's cool and i mean i i there was a time i was obsessed me and my best friend it's just like how we would spend our some you know morning on the weekend just like watching homes on the hammer so you were there as a guest yeah i'll um i mean also send you i've got i put the videos onto youtube um so there's two videos there's a before and after so i'll send you a link and you'll see i've got a few more grey hairs now because this is quite an old video but yeah it was good fun so i'll send you the link and you can have a look oh that's awesome i would be really interested to see oh it's great i do really do like that show it's awesome good good um so would you be able to now to share a little bit about you know you work obviously with business owners in terms of in in the area of digital marketing and i'm sure you've got a lot of insight into you know what works what doesn't work i would like you to if you can share some of the biggest challenges that um business owners or ceos who can go through or go through when it comes to digital marketing i think the probably the biggest problem that i hear frequently is that people don't know where to start because there's so much to it you know you've got social media channels you've got websites you've got videos and a lot of people feel quite overwhelmed they just don't know where to start really so i think um getting some education you know i'm not saying necessarily do the training course of course i'd like them to do that but i think um just getting some knowledge and and reading some books on marketing not so much marketing general but particularly internet marketing because that's that's where everything is these days and obviously it depends on the nature of people's businesses and what they do i mean for example pizza pizza businesses leaflets that go through letterboxes still work very well which is why we get all the junk mail because it still works it still gets success and and some businesses are more um going to get more success through that kind of marketing like window cleaners tradespeople where they're going to put stuff through your letterbox because it's property maintenance whereas other things lend yourself much more to the internet so it's unlikely that a leaflet food letterbox would work for a clothing company such as primark or whatever they're obviously going to get more of a following by doing a social media campaign and some facebook ads um but having said that primark was probably a bad example because they don't they don't have an on they have an online presence as far as they have a website and social media but you can't purchase online just online whereas other companies you can um and i think so i would say that for a lot of companies they need to look at it depends on what they do because obviously it could be a lawyer a dentist a property maintenance company an accountancy company so it's a case of recognizing what kind of business they're in and working out what kind of marketing is the most is the most appropriate for them and what channels to use because as i say it could be that leaflets through letterboxes are going to work best for your for your business again you know there'll be small businesses that start off locally that i mean businesses that might be have two or three offices throughout the country so they can't small but they've got multiple locations um so and again with a lot of the services if it's an online presence where you can serve people in other countries then obviously internet marketing is an absolute must leaflets will never be working in that context so i think it's a case of people need to learn a bit about marketing and and gain themselves a good awareness and know some of the terminology so they can have a conversation with somebody else who's an expert and know what a social media campaign is and they know what a website is and know how to go about getting one built and also i'd say a key thing to learn about is outsourcing because you can outsource anything and get work done very reasonably priced by experts in different parts of the world but as i was saying earlier before you before you can outsource something you need to understand what it is you're trying to outsource so that you can measure the results when they're delivered um so i'm not sure if that really answered your question but it's uh no this is really interesting i mean i was really really just wanted to find out you know what you see because obviously i work with business owners as well and you know our our work the work we do is yes it's about you know finances and operations uh profitability and cash however when it comes to sales and marketing it this is a it's always a very big part of our conversations because you see i work on business planning which means very often with the business owner we would um or the managing director ceo we would um go through planning the revenue right it's one of one of the biggest thing right this is we can start with the planning for profit but we're obviously obviously planning for revenue it's it's a big one and every time they come to me with targets and what they would like to achieve i always ask them a question how and what is your strategy even though i'm not an expert i would like to see that they're thinking behind it right excuse me and i would like to see the thinking behind it and the strategy that they have the ideas that they have to generate that income so maybe here you would be able to offer some tips and advice as well and what i see a lot is that that and i assume again obviously you will correct me if i'm wrong is that the approaches would be a little bit different to someone who for someone who's just starting out as a business owner versus someone who is trying to grow and scale the business and possibly have got some money to to invest into that as well this is this is very interesting and i think i'm gonna i can very much relate to the business that you're in because i'm i'm a great believer in planning and with so in indian in my well in business generally although people haven't always considered this there's this concept of something called a sales funnel and the sales funnel existed way before the internet so sales funnel you probably have you probably know the top of the following you have your cold prospects people that aren't even aware of you or what or your business and you have people at the bottom of the phone which are the ones that actually they've become customers they've spent money on your products and services and that's always been out there you know even before the internet so people that were selling pizzas or people that were doing accountancy the way they used to acquire their clients in the old days is probably much more phone call based and leaflet-based and magazine advert based but it's still a sales funnel so what i would say to businesses generally you know for one for owner operators that are just quite content to be owner operators and they don't have expansion plans they probably get referrals which are fantastic that's a great way to get business um but they probably don't really need to do much marketing if they're quite content with just continual income stream that they have and then marketing is probably less necessary for them but for people like yourself and me who want to expand our business and take on more staff we need to get more customers but in a when you're running a business as you know like from forecasting it's really important so if you have a if you have a sales funnel you have a spreadsheet or another tool that says that you know for every thousand pounds that you spend on advertising you're gonna get you may get um so many inquiries or contacts with potential customers call them prospects and you have to measure so that at each stage you know how many people convert and become a customer how many people sign up to your email list how many people actually transact with you and then by looking at those numbers you can work out where your money's best spent so in the world of online marketing you might run several adverts on facebook or youtube and so forth and you work out which those which those adverts give you the best return and i was working with a gym as a fitness person quite recently and he was quite into spreadsheets so he really understood this which was really pleasing for me because a lot of people think well we need to spend an advertising budget and they'll allocate some money but they don't think beyond that but what people should be doing is tracking their numbers so they know that if they spend a thousand adverts and it generates a hundred inquiries how many of those inquiries convert into customers so it all needs to be tracked in a spreadsheet because then you can work you can actually you can't control one character and they can see what's effective but also but also not only that people need to work out what's the again depending on the products or services they need to work out the lifetime value of the customer so they might um like interesting nothing i think amazon when they first started out business they were a lost lead for about five years they were losing money until but that was that was part of their model so people need to work out what it takes to acquire a customer and how much it's worth them because i you know said people have passed you know would you would you pay a hundred pounds to get an enquiry oh no i'm not spending 100 pounds i thought well hang on now if you're putting a new roof on a house that could be worth 7 000 pounds to you so why would you not spend 100 pounds to have contact with someone who's interested in having a new roof and you kind of make them think okay when you think of it like that it makes more sense because to spend a thousand pounds on advertising you're throwing mud at the wall but not knowing what your results are and in in the world of the internet they have this um concept of an attribution window so what an attribution window is it's a period of time so if you do an advert on day one it could be that on seven days later that that person who saw advert converts into a sale or converts into an email address or it could be a month later or it could if you look at something like people selling cars brand new cars it's quite a complex sales funnel because they have to people click on the advert they maybe book a test drive or do some research so it might be like a year a year's attribution window because they they first see the advert here and they make the purchase there a lot further down the line but if you measure all the money involved at different times you can then work out what profit has made you on the advertising spend so it's really important that people work out they spend a thousand pounds here or however much money is how much money does it make them down the line if you don't measure it the advertising advertising expense is expensive when it doesn't work but obviously when it does work you can spend a thousand pounds in and you get ten thousand absolutely you will know and you will always always be able to predict with quite great accuracy on the return you're going to get once once you do know what works for you absolutely exactly so what so what about for someone on like a smaller budget maybe they are not there yet to invest into uh in um in advertising or online advertising you know paid ads what would you recommend for them well i think um you can again i think um the interesting thing about a small business again i'm kind of trying to sort of pick some examples that hopefully people can relate to here so with them let's i'm gonna say that a small business um like an owner operator is probably going to work in a small geographic area they might cover a particular town um or a computer particularly city so if they're creating adverts just to people of that city chances are it's going to be quite inexpensive because with with if we just look at something like facebook adverts the more money you spend the more customers see your advert in in broad brush strokes so if you if you define a small geographic area of say a population of say 250 000 you know people could spend five pounds a day and still get good results from that because you don't need you're not looking to advertise to the world are you looking forward yes because you know if it's too far away you don't want the business anyway because you have to drive too far depending what it is that you do and if it's like a visit you know some businesses you'll go out to the customer like a window cleaner or um a roofer other people like dentists and lawyers the customers come to you um so they've got to define their geography but they probably find that when they set up their targeting correctly um the daily cost of running some ads to get you know get some prospects will be um quite quite cost effective but again they need to measure it they need to measure because what they're trying to do is turn adverts into enquiries like phone call inquiries or email inquiries so that they make contact with the customer have a conversation book them to come out but beyond the internet people still need to have a spreadsheet to say okay well i've seen 10 customers this week oh sorry i've seen 10 prospects i've met 10 people and and three of those people have signed the contract and paid me a deposit so i've got three conversions so beyond getting inquiries the sales funnel continues and people need to measure that and track it because if they don't track it they're wasting their time and they've got and they need to work out if they're doing something wrong what what is it about the interview with the customer that that turned them away or that didn't encourage them to buy it so people need to talk about even if they're a roofer or a window cleaner or a dentist or an accountant or a lawyer they need to look at their own sales pitch so they're having a conversation with someone to get them signed up agreed and basically see what works in like each stage of that process right so exactly it's really important to do the whole the whole picture so so in conclusion people could spend five pounds a day which is what's that that's thirty three five hundred fifty pounds a month i know it's still a fair bit of money but for a 55 pounds a day people i guess that's that's that's that's i'm sure that's very you know manageable i don't think people even realize that they could get some good results from that that amount of money very much so as i say because you're covering if you're covering a small geographic area then that's that's very doable but even things like you know posting on instagram posting on social media and which all that cost is people's time to take some photos and again depending what business they're in the photos i i was talking to a guy the other day and he was telling me about a friend of his that's just started an instagram channel and she does property refurbishment and the photos of the refurbished property were stunning they're really beautiful and i think she went from a from zero followers to about thirty thousand followers in the space of a week which is wow amazing wow that's impressive very impressive i was like wow and i think he's gonna try and arrange to bring her on the meeting next on the next time we have a zoom session because that's really impressive results but but photos are really important because if something is visually interesting people are inclined to share it with their friends and family and that's how you get organic reach so if people purposely and consistently post on the likes of instagram or facebook for free that's all you need is a social media account you can do that for free and if you get if you get something that catches people's eye and attention then it will get all you know that's what viral marketing is all about organic marketing is the same thing people will share it and share it and share it so it promotes the knowledge of people's brands and it will get out there and that all that takes is people's time it doesn't cost any money to do that um that's yeah that's right exactly just our time is an investment here absolutely and it will generate you know it might be a while before it generates a hard solid tangible inquiry but it's going to increase brand awareness it gets lame out there um really powerful stuff and i think um there was a case there's been lots of interesting cases i read a case a few years ago of um a lady who was making these amazing cupcakes i think she was somewhere here in devon actually and these cupcakes were strongly beautiful she just started out i think she was really struggling and then one one of the celebrities i forget who was ordered some of these cupcakes through a pseudonym so the woman didn't realize who it was at the time and this celebrity took a photograph of these cupcakes and posted it on her instagram account and the the results from that you know millions of people were interested absolutely amazing yes this is something that probably a lot of people would like to do especially if someone's mother you know do it like you said it's got like a very visual business and you know really good product and suddenly suddenly someone famous recommends it i mean this is truly truly amazing so you know before we finish would you want to tell us a little bit about your course obviously you mentioned it uh at the beginning you recently spent a lot of time and to create the platform and the course for people to learn to do their own digital marketing and can you just can you share you know some details on what's what's included and what exactly people can gain from it yeah certainly okay i think well i think i recognized before i set out building the course there are a lot of really good courses out there that specialize in one aspect like they'll teach you how to do email marketing or how to do facebook ads and although they're very good they're kind of quite isolated because when you're doing online marketing you know you need to have you know you need to know how to get videos done you need how to create images you need to know how to get a website created how to register domain name you need to know how to do a facebook ads how to do a youtube ad you need to know about host you need to know a lot of stuff and some of the courses they kind of they teach you all this stuff about facebook advertising but they don't tell you how to set up a landing page or they don't tell you how to get your videos done or how to get your graphics done so i recognize that you know a lot of these people leave you to find out all the other stuff on your own and i wanted to build a course that encapsulated everything so that you could start at ground zero and learn all the terminology and enough detail to do it yourself if you want to or not have enough awareness to then outsource it but also we're teaching things like you know how to be well organized as we're saying like having good file names so you don't get a mess with your organization and if you're working on a computer a lot there's lots of real quick productivity hacks you can do things like you know if you're on a windows computer doing control c to copy things and paste them if you learn how to do those things very quickly you can speed through so many tasks whereas if you're trying to find stuff all the time a lot of people start typing stuff it's so slow so there's lots of productivity hacks that we teach people as well um which save a lot of time and also save a lot of rs site because you if you're copying and pasting you're not typing you're not wearing out your wrists so the course encapsulates all that stuff how to be productive all the aspects of online marketing it's just very very self-contained and uh i feel really pleased that we've we taught everything in a box so you don't have to go over here to find out how to do email marketing or over here to build a website and you can learn everything inside the course it's very um comprehensive okay that's awesome sounds really great so you know to uh to uh finish things off just if you let us know how we can find you online what's the best way to get in touch with you sure okay well the um my email address is paul at ldm dot expert the website is www.ldm.expert
i've got a linkedin and a facebook page so if you if you also look for me under the name of paul jordan or if you look for the underneath internet marketing um you'll find me um that's the thing these days we've got so many ways people can contact us whatsapp facebook messenger email text messages yes absolutely if we can find someone online i mean there's really no excuse anymore is that it's just very very very easy so paul thank you very much i appreciate your time and thank you for being here thank you for the experiences you shared with us and the advice and um i'll see you soon well aggie thanks for inviting me it's been a real pleasure to be here with you and i really appreciate being invited on your show so thank you very much thank you thank you bye